Roger Clemens

[drunkpirate66]

Curious to see/hear people's opinions on Roger Clemens. Now that he has been cleared of all charges will the voters allow him into the Hall of Fame? Obviously, a case could be made that Roger Clemens is statistically the greatest pitcher since World War II if not all time. I think most people would put Clemens atleast in the top 5 for greatest statistical starting pitching. The only pitcher that I would personally put above Clemens is Greg Maddux.

So I ask . . . now that he has been found not guilty of all charges that would impede his entrance to Cooperstown will the voters elect Clemens to the Hall of Fame?

[Bicycle Bill]

First of all, this isn't like the All-Star Game balloting (Official slogan: Vote Early and Often) where you can stuff the ballot box to get a player onto the team.  Only sportswriters get to elect people to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

But yes, they will elect him.  People, even sportswriters, have notoriously short memories — so much so that if either Pete Rose or "Shoeless Joe" Jackson, both of whom were banned from baseball for life because of gambling scandals, were to be reinstated and therefore become eligible to be elected to the Hall of Fame the actual vote would be superfluous.

Consider too former pro football players Paul Hornung and Alex Karras.  Suspended for the 1963 season for gambling on NFL games, both were welcomed back and can now be found in the NFL Hall of Fame in Ohio; and it's a foregone conclusion that Michael Vick will most likely end up there as well once his playing days are done, his dogfighting incident and conviction notwithstanding.

Clemens will enter the Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility, and I predict the vote won't even be close.

-"BB"-

[Wino you know]

Clemens I have no problem with. I'm not, however, saying I condone what he did IF he did anything, but I have no problems with him otherwise. CONGRESS, on the other hand, who seems to think it's THEIR business if someone is sticking a needle in their ass when there are REAL issues going on, on the other hand, I have a problem with. Isn't it funny how they get THEIR bowels in an uproar when someone lies to THEM.

[chippewa]

I don't think he gets in the Hall right away. They didn't have nearly enough evidence to prove perjury, I'm surprised it even got to court. But I think he'll get lumped in with the "did something but he didn't get caught" group. That's where I put him anyway. If and when the writers are ready to put Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro in, that's when he'll get into the Hall. Statistics alone don't get you into the Hall of Fame at this time, at least not when there's a cloud of doubt hanging above your head.

[Wino you know]

I do agree, Scott. And, to answer Jon's original question, no, I don't think Clemens will ever get in. If anyone from the group you mentioned gets in, it'll be Mark McGuire, simply for the remorse he's shown that the others haven't. Americans are usually very forgiving. Only time will tell.

[surfpirate]

Clemens I have no problem with. I'm not, however, saying I condone what he did IF he did anything, but I have no problems with him otherwise. CONGRESS, on the other hand, who seems to think it's THEIR business if someone is sticking a needle in their ass when there are REAL issues going on, on the other hand, I have a problem with. Isn't it funny how they get THEIR bowels in an uproar when someone lies to THEM.

That's two different issues.

#1 Should CONGRESS have initiated investigations into the use of steroids in baseball in the first place?

#2 Once #1 was underway, should the DEPARTMENT of JUSTICE (not Congress) have pursued Clemons for lying under oath?

My responses to the above would be
"NO" to #1 for the reasons you stated .... Congress have better things they should be doing ...

but "YES" to #2.
It would be an unwise precedent for the Justice Department to look the other way and ignore potential lying under oath.

[chippewa]

I do agree, Scott. And, to answer Jon's original question, no, I don't think Clemens will ever get in. If anyone from the group you mentioned gets in, it'll be Mark McGuire, simply for the remorse he's shown that the others haven't. Americans are usually very forgiving. Only time will tell.

Yeah, that will help his fight. I think, in time, the writers will look for a way to put some of these guys in and that may be the deciding factor in many cases. Come clean and one day you'll be forgiven.

[txaggirl91]

I wondered if anyone was going to start a thread on this subject. Should he go to the Hall of Fame. Yes. Especially since they found him not guilty.

I think the whole thing was a waste of taxpayer money. I'm sure he (and most of the other players out there) have used some kind of enhancement. My dad and I have a bet on if he sues the trainer for all of this.

[MacPhin]

Jon, you must have seen all the coverage yesterday. I thought Joe Amorosino did the best job putting it into perspective. Roger went down hill before he left here...then all of the sudden he is amazing up in Toronto and then off to the Yankees and Texas. I don't think he could have done so well w/o some sort of help. IMO, his achievements before leaving Boston is what he should be judged on only. He was really good here, very talented. Yes, he wasn't proven guilty but in my mind he his.

I don't hink he'll get in right away but he will at some point.

I'll never like him again because he went to the Yankees after he said to the Boston fans that he isn't about the money.I feel he lied about that and about his usage.

[chippewa]

I wondered if anyone was going to start a thread on this subject. Should he go to the Hall of Fame. Yes. Especially since they found him not guilty.

I think the whole thing was a waste of taxpayer money. I'm sure he (and most of the other players out there) have used some kind of enhancement. My dad and I have a bet on if he sues the trainer for all of this..

Not guilty of lying to Congress, but steroid use is still in question. I don't think he wants to get in a courtroom where possible steroid use is the crux of the case, instead of the question of lying about what he said.

Obviously, I think he used, at least late in his career. Like Carol said, he got better at a point in his career when he should have been getting worse. Hard work ethic, sure, but most other pro athletes have that too. They don't get better as they age.

[txaggirl91]

I'm not saying that he didn't. I know all of them probably have at some point in time. I' sure there are a lot of people in the HOF that have used in the past. He had an incredible career so I think he should go in.

[LIPH]

I wouldn't vote for him because he played for the Red Sox and the Yankees. Do I think he'll get in eventually? Probably, but I don't think there's any chance the writers will vote him in the first couple of years he's eligible. They've left McGwire hanging for a few years already. McGwire might get in one of these years but I don't think it will have anything to do with showing remorse. One thing a lot of people forget about McGwire is that he hit 49 home runs when he was a rookie. This isn't a guy like Brady Anderson who went from 19 home runs to 51, or Sammy Sosa who became the incredible shrinking man after baseball started testing for performance enhancing drugs. He was always big and he always hit a lot of home runs. He just got bigger and hit more home runs after he started juicing.

[pbans]

Clemens I have no problem with. I'm not, however, saying I condone what he did IF he did anything, but I have no problems with him otherwise. CONGRESS, on the other hand, who seems to think it's THEIR business if someone is sticking a needle in their ass when there are REAL issues going on, on the other hand, I have a problem with. Isn't it funny how they get THEIR bowels in an uproar when someone lies to THEM.

That's two different issues.

#1 Should CONGRESS have initiated investigations into the use of steroids in baseball in the first place?

#2 Once #1 was underway, should the DEPARTMENT of JUSTICE (not Congress) have pursued Clemons for lying under oath?

My responses to the above would be
"NO" to #1 for the reasons you stated .... Congress have better things they should be doing ...

but "YES" to #2.
It would be an unwise precedent for the Justice Department to look the other way and ignore potential lying under oath.

I concur with your opinion.

[drunkpirate66]

For those of you who don't know, Baseball is the only sport that has a character clause when considering a player for the Hall of Fame. This character clause is what makes the vote on the steroid guys interesting. Statistically all the major steroid players (McGuire, Palmeiro, etc) should get in. But the character clause is specifically the issue in terms of not getting the necessary percentage of votes.

Roger Clemens has been proven not guilty. Not guilty of obstruction of justice which in turn is not guilty of taking steroids. Whether you or anyone else think he did take them (And I am sure he did) he has been found not guilty by a court of law. Therefore, the aforementioned character clause should not apply to steroids. Therefore, one would think, he would get into the HOF.

[Wino you know]

I'll try this again:
Do I think Clemens will get in:No. (in MY opinion)
Would I like to see him get in? Yes. (As a Red Sox or Yankee-I really don't care).
Do I think he deserves it? Possibly. Still a little undecided.
Do I like the guy? About as much as he likes me.

Congess: Really not their business.

[TommyBahama]

As Carol said....he was on the down size of his career and all of a sudden he is pitching 200 innings and winning cy youngs..... i think he had some help

[drunkpirate66]

As Carol said....he was on the down size of his career and all of a sudden he is pitching 200 innings and winning cy youngs..... i think he had some help

I agree. But that is not the question.

The question is because he was proven not guilty in a court of law do the sports writers and other voters for the Baseball Hall of Fame use the suspicion of steroid use to keep him out. I don't see how they can. As far as anyone is concerned, Clemens did nothing wrong (according to the rule of law). No obstruction of justice/no proven steroid use . . . all he leaves are the greatest starting pitching stats perhaps of all time. Quite frankly, he should basically receive 99.9% of all votes because the people who vote can't say a darn thing about cheating or anything else from this day forward. The United States government, shockingly, failed (again), in that regard (and practically every other since the Federal government became all big brother-ish).

[C-Dawg]

I HOPE he never gets in the Baseball Hall of Fame....he's a lying dirtbag, plain and simple, just like Mark McGuire ( I didn't come here to talk about the past ) and a lot of other players from this era...if you want to put them in a Hall of Fame, put them in the Cheaters Hall of Fame.

[TommyBahama]

As Carol said....he was on the down size of his career and all of a sudden he is pitching 200 innings and winning cy youngs..... i think he had some help

I agree. But that is not the question.

The question is because he was proven not guilty in a court of law do the sports writers and other voters for the Baseball Hall of Fame use the suspicion of steroid use to keep him out. I don't see how they can. As far as anyone is concerned, Clemens did nothing wrong (according to the rule of law). No obstruction of justice/no proven steroid use . . . all he leaves are the greatest starting pitching stats perhaps of all time. Quite frankly, he should basically receive 99.9% of all votes because the people who vote can't say a darn thing about cheating or anything else from this day forward. The United States government, shockingly, failed (again), in that regard (and practically every other since the Federal government became all big brother-ish).

I guess the same would go for McGwire , Bonds and Palmero......to Answer the Question....when Peter Gammons was asked ( and he has a vote) , he would vote him in......i say ,he gets in based on hearing his point of view.

[TommyBahama]

As Carol said....he was on the down size of his career and all of a sudden he is pitching 200 innings and winning cy youngs..... i think he had some help

I agree. But that is not the question.

The question is because he was proven not guilty in a court of law do the sports writers and other voters for the Baseball Hall of Fame use the suspicion of steroid use to keep him out. I don't see how they can. As far as anyone is concerned, Clemens did nothing wrong (according to the rule of law). No obstruction of justice/no proven steroid use . . . all he leaves are the greatest starting pitching stats perhaps of all time. Quite frankly, he should basically receive 99.9% of all votes because the people who vote can't say a darn thing about cheating or anything else from this day forward. The United States government, shockingly, failed (again), in that regard (and practically every other since the Federal government became all big brother-ish).

I guess the same would go for McGwire , Bonds and Palmero......to Answer the Question....when Peter Gammons was asked ( and he has a vote) , he would vote him in......i say ,he gets in based on hearing his point of view.